The latest edition of "Old House" magazine (September 2011) is devoted to energy saving measures and examples of how people are greening their historic homes. One of the toughest battles in this arena still remains that of original windows. Five of the country's top window specialists - David Gibney, Jim Turner, Duffy Hoffman, John Leeke, and Bob Yapp - decided to do something about it and formed the Window Preservation Standards Collaborative (WPSC).
All Preservation Trades Network members (all passionate about original windows) they realized that they needed to arm State Offices, local Preservation Commissions, and preservation advocates with tools on different approaches to weatherization and restoration--approaches backed up by data on energy efficiency. As far as WPSC is concerned, they are taking back the narrative the window replacement industry has hijacked through marketing.
With an estimated rate of 32 million original windows lost each year, now is the time to act. In most cases, original windows can be cost-effectively restored and made as energy efficient as replacements. There is an immediate need for standards for energy-efficient restoration, as well as well-researched energy data on the thermal efficiency of original windows.
WPSC will host a summit this summer at Kentucky's Pine Mountain Settlement School, where the group will be conducting testing and revising the draft Standards. The WPSC Standards will go beyond Preservation Brief 9 (Repair of Historic Wood Windows) and will address energy efficiency, plus also provide examples for different types of windows. For more information on WPSC, and to view a draft of the Standards (currently being drafted) visit http://ptnresource.org/WPSC/
29 comments:
I like the fact of preservation. If it's not practical and cost effective then it'll lose every time
THIS IS FROM KIM SHE IS A FRIEND OF JAX HISTORIC
This is all well and good, but have they gotten any real quotes to actually repair windows and make them as efficient as vinyl replacements? The contractor that built our garage also quoted a house in Avondale in which the owner wanted to repair the existing windows. His estimate was 5 times the cost of a replacement window. And he's pretty middle of the road on pricing. If it is cheaper, please do tell who the contractor is!! :)
Kim
To Jax Historic and Kim. Most contractors will greatly over estimate because they dont do it everyday or they will inflate the price because it is simply easier to replace than to restore. I specialize in historic window restoration and I can tell you that replacements can be done in a few hours but restoring takes weeks. Many people like to see instant result- but in all honestly how can anyone expect to have anything restore/repair in a few hours when it took 80 yrs to get in bad shape? Main reason why it takes so long is because everything has to dry/cure properly before you move to the next step, otherwise the products (glaze, paint)will fail in the near future...Also, a vinyl windows is not always as "efficient" as a wood window. Wood is a pretty good insulator by itself, its the glass and weatherstripping that could make the difference. However, one can add weatherstripping to any operable window for about $30- And honestly these window manufacture can legally make any claim they want without research-so "efficient" is a very relative term and the window salesman will tell you the sky is purple if it means you buying a window from him. Ask them how long does the window retain its R3 value? your current window probably has an R1 value. I have compared my prices for a full restoration- the works! with getting a middle of the line clad/wood window and we are usually half the cost. If you compare to the cheapest ugliest vinyl, no i am not cheaper but it is still no worth it for various other reasons- Window restoration is the greener option, hands down. It is the most cost effective option as well....if you are worried about loosing energy you are way better off looking at your attic insulation first. Check out JEA's Energy upgrades page- it is better to put reflective film on your windows than to replace....I can go on for hours but if you have any question please feel to contact me or anyone else who is on RAP's craftsman list for window preservation/restoration.
oh and I forgot to mention that we will be going to this summit in late July. Looking forward to exploring Pine Mountain School Project in Kentucky.
mohrjax
How sad that you can go on for hours about windows, You should probably get out a little more.
That being said.
We have check out all the options regarding window
for our home and again it is not the most cost effective.
All of the fans and friends of Jax Historic know you work for RAP and you have to be pro RAP. We get it
but you are so wrong. regarding windows I have done all that research for my personally house. and vinyl was the way to go.
It is really no wonder that riverside looks the way it looks
Because of RAP and city planning to much red tape for home owners to go through.
if I work for RAP I better start showing up for work, oops.
morhjax
Everyone is entitled to their opinion including me and you and we differ.
OK we differ
Really get over it
Jaxhistoric/Kim. I would like to get that research you have done so I can present it to the WPSC guys next month. If Vinyl is a more cost effective option they need to be aware of which vinyl windows are better and apparently cheaper than fixing the 90yr old wood window were the wood is maybe 200years. Even if you could just give me the name of the product we can take it from there. Your help in making Riverside a better place is greatly appreciated. Thanks!
we all differ it is ok
get out a little bit more and maybe up your Zoloft
MORHJAX
LOL I get it Angel Corrales you own a window restoration company that is why you argue wood is better than vinyl . you need work
I should have realized you had a motive, and not a passion
I am laughing out loud indeed....I simply asked for your assistance but you replied with insults saying that I need to increase my depression medication- very mature......Yes my name is Angel Corrales, founder and owner My Old House Restoraion, my webiste is MOHRJAX.com, look familiar? I was never trying to hide who I was or what I did. In fact if you read my first comment I told you that "i specialize in historic window restoration " and that "I have compared my prices" and "if you have any questions please feel to contact me or anyone else who is on RAP's craftsman list for window preservation/restoration".....so other than adding .COM to this username it was pretty clear who I am. And nice to meet you "jax historic",but whats your name? I am very interested in your data/research about replacement vinyl window, seriously.
never heard of you
never heard of you
no passion just need the money LOL LOL LOL
i am actually interested in this topic as i have a house in Riverside that was build in 1923 and has 36 windows that are all painted shut and have no strings, so i wouldn't be able to use them even if they weren't painted.
here is why i would replace any day of the week before i restore. last year, a tree fell on my house and, among other damage, destroyed 3 windows. RAP made a big deal about restoring the original windows "to preserve the integrity of the property" and began making claims that an original window is just as energy efficient as a new window. so we had our contractor go around and price the restoration and replacement. the cheapest restoration place we were able to find priced the work at $800 per window and it would take an additional 2-3 months to make them. at this point we've been looking for about 4 months. we ended up replacing the windows, at $500 per window, that took 3 weeks to make, deliver, and install. the very next month, my electric bill dropped $100 from pre-tree-falling -in-the-living-room status.
now, if that $100/month savings isn't enough for me, saving over $10k to replace my windows vs having them repaired will seal the deal for me any day of the week.
and i have yet to find any information to actually support the claims old windows are better. i saved an additional $50/month when i caulked all the windows in the house and plugged all the gaps between the two pieces.
Thank you all for your comments thus far. It has proven to be an interesting conversation.
The WSPC symposium aims to develop scientific evidence on the thermal efficiency of historic/original windows versus replacements and also standards for the restoration of original windows. Please, stay tuned.
I enclose a worksheet developed by the National Trust for Hisoric Preservation's Sustainability Program on Windows. Here is the link: http://www.preservationnation.org/issues/sustainability/additional-resources/July2008WindowsTipSheet.pdf
To answer Jax Historic, in the long run, it is more practical to restore original fabric than to replace. We will have more information to follow on this soon.
To answer Artem, very sorry to hear about the damage to your home. Had you weatherstripped, reglazed, and caulked where necessary, you would have might have seen these savings a long time ago.
I think that there are some HUGE misconceptions here! Folks, a window is just a hole in the wall that has very, very little energy efficiency. The R value is maybe a 3, tops, for any window out there,new, replacement or restored.
As for the pricing on restoring a window, restoration is a specialized trade and your contractor is quoting you a price for them to have someone else do the restoration. Contractors don't work for free, so they mark it up. Hence the high prices to restore vs. replace.
Jax Historic, get your facts straight, RAP and and the Historic Commission are enforcing federal guidelines from the National Parks Service, not their own rules. You have an issue with the wrong people.
Artem, I am calling Bologna on your savings figures from replacing 3 windows. Unless the damaged windows were always open, as is all the way open, you never save those numbers. I would say that on average electric bills are around $500 per month in Riverside/Avondale and you are saying that 3 windows made a 20% diffenence?? Probably not!
I am not here to pick a side, just to state facts! If you lived there before it was designated a historic district then maybe you have a gripe, but if not, you knew that living in the RA Historic district had some rules. It is no different that living in a community with a HOA!
By the way, Historic Jax, if we are calling people out by name be careful. It is not so hard to figure out who you are! When you post the same thing on 3 of your facebook "pages" and your personal page!
Smart One.. you can call bologna on my comments all you want, i can show you my historical electric bill to prove it... and my electric bill dropped from $350 before the tree, down to $200 after the tree damage was fixed.
Laura, what is the point of having a window if i can't open it? if i have to paint it shut, caulk, and weather strip it just to keep bugs out and the cold/hot air in? they are not just holes in the walls, as Smart One puts it, they do serve a function. One of them being, an alternative way to cool/heat your house by opening a window, or to air out your house. a potential way to save money, if nothing else.
i'm not saying replacing a window is the end all/be all for all windows and houses. that just happened to be the case in my house. a solution that leave me without a practical use of my property is not a very good solution in my opinion.
Artem, I am very interest in your "case" and if you are willing I would like to include you in our research. As Laura said, weatherstripping and caulking could have made the difference. Caulking was implying to caulking the window shut but caulking cracks and gaps around the window frame and casing, in the interior and exterior. Weatherstripping can easily be applied- this does reduce noise and prevent inside air from escaping and outside air from entering. It historical windows can but shouldnt be 100% sealed- this windows have to breath and need some room to expand as the weather changes. Smartone was giving a simplify version of what a window "is"- he ws fighting the misconception that a window opening can be made tobe as "efficient" as the rest of the wall...it cant be, its a hole in that whole. Keeping the historical window is not always the best option for the home- in some case the building envelop has been completely change and unless there is the availability to upgrade the original window to meet the new building envelop a "replacement" window may be the right choice-though a very rare choice. whatever money has been spend to change the building envelop, properly, will never been returned-not unless the cost to cool and heat our home reaches the moon. That being said, if someone has the fund to change the building envelop than it needs to be done right to protect, preserve and save the home for future generations...in your case I wonder what other factor when into lower your electric bill? Not to question what you are saying but to us that have done the research and continue to gather more info on new and old windows that kind of saving is unheard of- if you have pictures of the damage, if you are willing to share more info, and maybe even allow us to visit your home for further evaluation we would be happy to include all this research in our reports. Perhaps your home is the exception, if so we would like to find out why. Unlike what Jaxhistoric wants to claim- I do have a passion not only for historic windows but historic homes and"items" in general. I treat every project as if it was my house and I of course want the most practical choice and the choice that will give me the quickest payback.
i would be more than happy to help you with your research. send me an email and we can get in touch and figure something out. amoisey@comcast.net
Thanks for clarifying, Angel. I would never suggest making a window inoperable. That goes against all preservation principles I have been taught.
The beauty of large original windows is that you can open them in the spring and fall. As a matter of fact, in my house, we don't run the A/C during those times and simply have our large attic fan running--enjoying the many breezes and a more natural way of living.
Not saying that's for everyone--this effort, and many other things, are part of our home's efforts in being more sustainable.
Oh Kevin! Get a life. You knew what you were in for when you bought a RAP house. Come on now. If it is not one thing it is another with you. Maybe you need to decrease your medication! Get over yourself and move already! You own a house on Green Street anyways...not a the best location to be making such a stink about things. You are lucky you even have working windows in your neighborhood. Who cares?! Get a life. Start working and focusing on your business and maybe you wouldn't be such a failure at everything. And your friends are just as pathetic as you are if they have nothing better to do then post under your name and fight your battles. Grow a set man!
Kim, please read the NTHP PDF I have attached. Also, we can help with getting quotes for window repair. This is the original fabric of your home. In many cases, the wood used for your windows is old growth and simply cannot be found anymore--or would be cost prohibitive.
When you look at replacement, its important to look for "in-kind" replacement--like for like materials. Its an unfair comparison to look at fixing an original wood window versus replacing it with a lesser quality vinyl window.
Also, the lifespan of a vinyl is about 10 years on average.
"...... and my electric bill dropped from $350 before the tree, down to $200 after the tree damage was fixed..."
Whenever you make energy use comparisons, you have to include the fact that the weather was different for the two periods you are comparing. This can be done very accurately by using "degree days" information from the weather service.
Also, the replacement window industry keeps it a secret that their disposable windows do not last very long, and that their windows' energy efficiency diminishes over time. They start leaking air around the edges and the gas between the panes leaks out, and moisture gets in there fogging them up. The typical life of a disposable window is 8 to 15 years, and can be as short as 4 to 6 years. When your replacement windows need replacement again, you will loose any financial advantage you thought you had gained through energy costs. The typical payback period for replacement windows is 80 to 240 years! The typical payback for maintaining and upgrading existing windows is 2 to 8 years.
Laura and Angel, it might be fun to keep track of how frequently replacement windows are replaced in your neighborhood! The window industry admits that their windows only last 10 to 15 years, but you won't here that from their salesmen.
John
(I don't sell any window replacement or restoration services.)
Inexpensive exterior replacement projects are not only crucial to a buildings’s regular upkeep, but are also expected to recoup close to 70 percent of costs. Specific exterior projects such as siding, window and door replacements are part of regular maintenance.
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Greetings Mac. Thanks for your comment. While replacement is standard for newer homes, it is not so for historic homes. Homes built before 1940 are different in their materials and in their construction. They use old growth woods, such as heart pine, that is difficult to find these days.
Simply put, historic homes were built to last.
Vynil replacement windows and siding will not only ruin the historic integrity of your home, but also will require replacements. Once this cycle of replacement begins, its never ending. Its a different standard; these products are manufactured and designed to be replaced. Not so with the historic material--that's why its been there for decades and decades.
Vynil is certainly not the same thing as an old growth wood window--not in appearance or quality. Most, I dare say, almost all historic districts in the country don't allow vynil because it is not a comparable product or one that lasts more than 7 years on average (I had stated 10 in my earlier post, but have been corrected).
JEA will even tell you that window replacement is step 5 out of 6 in a comprehensive energy savings programme for your home. The costs, in most instances, far outweigh any savings.
There are instances where replacement windows are warranted. For example, a new addition to your historic home, or if your home has lost its original windows and somewhere around the 50s they were changed out for aluminum awnings...
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